The central Thesis of Bob Lazar's scientific disclosures was the existance of a stable isotope of Element 115, which is needed for the ship's antimatter reactor. During the time period when Bob Lazar first spoke with George Knapp on Coast to Coast AM under the cover-name "Dennis", Science had not yet discovered Element 115. Only years later would science catch up with Bob Lazar...
“Inside the reactor, Element 115 is bombarded with a proton which plugs into the nucleus of the 115 atom and becomes Element 116, which immediately decays and releases, or radiates, small amounts of antimatter. The antimatter is released into a tuned tube which keeps it from reacting with the matter that surrounds it. It is then directed toward a gaseous matter target at the end of the tube. The matter and antimatter collide and annihilate, totally converting to energy. The heat from this reaction is converted into electrical energy in a near 100% efficient thermoelectric generator.."
by Dr. David L. Morgan
In 1996, I was asked to review the content of a Bob Lazar website by an online
acquaintance. Since then, my critique has been posted to Usenet discussion boards,
featured on web pages, and taken on something of a life of its own. I still get
email about it monthly, which is quite amusing, considering it’s been almost 5
years since I wrote it. Since the original posting was intended to be an
informal email, the tone was somewhat harsh and flippant, and some sections
were a bit too dismissive. I decided recently that I would try to put together
a revision of the now-infamous paper.
That revision is presented below.
After reading an account by Bob Lazar of the “physics” of
his Area 51 UFO propulsion system, my conclusion is this: Mr. Lazar presents a
scenario which, if it is correct, violates a whole handful of currently
accepted physical theories. That in and of itself does not necessarily mean
that his scenario is impossible. But the presentation of the scenario by Lazar
is troubling from a scientific standpoint.
Mr. Lazar on many occasions demonstrates an obvious lack of
understanding of current physical theories. On no occasion does he acknowledge
that his scenario violates physical laws as we understand them, and on no
occasion does he offer up any hints of new theories which would make his
mechanism possible. Mr. Lazar has a propensity for re-defining scientific
terms, and using scientific language in a confusing and careless way. For these
reasons, I don’t feel that Lazar's pseudo-scientific ramblings are really
worthy of any kind of serious consideration.
I will focus on the parts of Lazar's text which I took the most exception with-
most of these excerpts relate to particle physics, which is my field. Lazar's
text is in boldface. He begins by describing the principle behind interstellar
This is accomplished by generating an intense gravitational field and using that
field to distort space/time, bringing the destination to the source, and
allowing you to cross many light years of space in little time and without
traveling in a linear mode near the speed of light.
I’m less bothered by the wording of this passage now than I
used to be, although I still think it’s misleading. If you are distorting
spacetime with a gravitational field, it produces a very specific kind of
distortion, and a very specific kind of attraction. That’s what gravity IS – a
distortion in spacetime, at least according to general relativity. And gravity
attracts EVERYTHING. A gravitational field is a gravitational field...you can't
pick and choose which objects it has an effect on. So, going by what Lazar says
here, I still say that if you were to generate a gravitational field intense
enough to warp spacetime and "bring the destination to the source"
you'll also bring everything else in the nearby universe to the source too! If
Mr. Lazar had really distorted spacetime like this back in his "Area 51"
lab, every object on the face of the Earth would have rushed into New Mexico.
Before they crashed back in the 50's, the alien saucers would have sucked the
Earth right out of orbit!
Now I’m no expert in general relativity, but I believe that
there ARE solutions in GR which do involve distortions of spacetime that are
not “gravitational” in nature. (In other words they would not “attract” things
outside of the distortion.) There are serious scientists that do serious work
on wormholes and warp bubbles and other mechanisms which could allow
faster-than-light travel by taking advantage of distortions in spacetime. As
this research stands right now, it seems clear that the energy requirements
which would be required by this kind of travel are unimaginable by any
standards – even the most fanciful extrapolations of alien technology. I’m
talking about an entire star’s-worth or even a galaxy’s-worth of energy! More
mass/energy than could be contained in a tiny saucer, or even all of New Mexico
for that matter.
There are currently two main theories about gravity. The "wave"
theory which states that gravity is a wave, and the other is a theory which
includes "gravitons", which are alleged sub-atomic particles which
perform as gravity, which by the way, is total nonsense.
These statements by Lazar are "total nonsense". There is only ONE
currently accepted theory of gravity: General Relativity. In GR, gravity is
described as a distortion of spacetime, not as a particle or a wave. There are
phenomena known as "gravitational waves" which exist in GR, but this
does not seem to be what Lazar is talking about. Lazar says that gravity IS a
wave. It isn’t a wave. The "gravitons" which he speaks of are a
feature of QUANTUM gravitational theories, and I think they require a little
All physicists realize that the theories of QM and GR are
incomplete, because they are mutually incompatible. In order to have a complete
theory, theoretical physicists are looking to combine the two into a unified
theory which will involve a quantum theory of gravity. There are currently no
quantum theories of gravity that work.
But even though a satisfactory theory does not yet exist, there is
nothing at all nonsensical about gravitons. When an adequate quantum theory of
gravity IS formulated, the energy of the gravitational field will be quantized.
This quantum of the gravitational field is what physicists call the graviton.
It is no more nonsensical than the photon - which is the quantum of the
(To add to the confusion of Lazar's statement, in any
quantum theory of gravity, as in all quantum theories, the graviton will be, in
a sense, BOTH a particle AND a wave!)
The fact that gravity is a wave has caused mainstream scientists to surmise
numerous sub-atomic particles which don't actually exist and this has caused
great complexity and confusion in the study of particle physics.
As a particle physicist, I must say that I have NO IDEA what he is talking
about here. Surmising particles that don't exist? I can't think of a single
particle whose existence has been postulated as a result of gravitational
theories. Perhaps the graviton is one, but that’s about it.
You must have at least an atom of substance for it to be considered
"matter". At least a proton and an electron and in most cases a
neutron. Anything short of an atom such as upquarks and downquarks which make
up protons and neutrons; or protons, neutrons, or electrons, individually are
considered to be mass and do not constitute "matter" until they form
These are peculiar and nonstandard definitions. The standard use of the term
"matter" includes anything which has mass. Even a single quark is
considered to be a particle of matter. If a quark isn’t “matter” than what is
it? All elementary particles are either matter particles or force-carrying
particles. An electron is a mater particle, and so is a quark.
It may seem like a small point, but I think that errors like
these are what make Lazar’s “theory” so
dubious. How can we give much consideration to someone who claims to be
overthrowing the foundations of particle physics, when it’s fairly obvious
that he isn’t even familiar with the
Gravity A is what is currently being labeled as the "strong nuclear
force" in mainstream physics ...
This is the place where Lazar begins to get him self in real trouble. As it is
understood now, the strong nuclear force has NOTHING TO DO WITH GRAVITY. Such a
statement shows either a complete lack of understanding of the physics of the
Standard Model of particle interactions, or a BLATANT attempt at deception. The
equations and coupling strengths which describe the two forces are totally
different and unrelated. The strong force couples only to quarks and gluons.
The gravitational force couples to all particles with mass. The strong force is
extremely short range. The range of gravity is infinite. The gravitational
coupling constant is orders of magnitude smaller than that of the strong
interaction. There is NO BASIS for using the word "gravity" to describe
the strong interaction IN ANY WAY.
If Mr. Lazar has formulated a NEW model in which the two forces are really the
same, then he has unified gravity with the other three forces of nature, and he
should publish it now and collect his Nobel Prize. If he DOES NOT have such a
new theory then his statement here is ABSOLUTELY FALSE.
It's not good enough to just call the strong interaction "gravity A
wave". You've got to demonstrate that it actually has SOMETHING to do with
gravity if you're going to attach that name to it! The words by themselves are
meaningless. I want to see some equations. Otherwise, this statement is not
only wrong, but utterly incomprehensible.
...it should be obvious that a large, single star system, binary star
system, or multiple star system would have had more of the prerequisite mass
and electromagnetic energy present during their creations.
Now we get into some fuzzy astronomy.
Mr. Lazar doesn’t seem to understand where heavy elements come from, or
how they are formed.
First we have to assume that when Lazar says “large” he
means “massive.” The "largeness" of a star says nothing about its
mass. In five or ten billion years, the sun will be as large as the orbit of
Mars. A star's size changes drastically during its lifetime. It’s pretty clear
that what Lazar should be talking about here is the MASS of the star.
The next section is a little vague, but he SEEMS to be suggesting that his
element 115, the alien fuel source, which doesn't exist on the Earth, should be
present in those solar systems that were more massive at their inception. The
implication here is that a star system which condensed out of a more massive
primordial cloud should have a greater abundance of heavier elements. This is
Heavy elements – all elements heavier than iron – are not formed during the
normal life cycles of stars. The only time when these nuclei are
"cooked" is during the collapse and subsequent explosion of
supernovae. The supernova explosion then spreads heavy elements throughout the
galaxy. For this reason, the abundances of heavy elements in any particular
star system depend NOT upon the properties of the current star, but on the
properties of the nearby stars of the PREVIOUS GENERATION! Therefore, all of
the star systems in a particular region of the galaxy will have essentially the
same abundances of heavy elements, regardless of the mass of star. If element
115 is STABLE, as Lazar claims it to be, then it should be created in supernova
explosions and it should exist EVERYWHERE!
The most important attribute of these heavier, stable elements is that the
gravity A wave is so abundant that it actually extends past the perimeter of
the atom. These heavier, stable elements literally have their own gravity A
field around them...
No naturally occurring atoms on earth have enough protons and neutrons for the
cumulative gravity A wave to extend past the perimeter of the atom...
Since Mr. Lazar has already identified this gravity A wave with the nuclear
force, he is essentially claiming that the nuclear force of element 115 extends
beyond the limits of the "115-ium" atom. (I'm tempted to call it
Lazarium...and somewhat surprised that he doesn't!!) This is simply not
possible, given the known properties of the nuclear force. The past 50 years of
probing the nucleus have taught us that the range of the nuclear force is VERY
short, and protons and neutrons only feel the pull of their nearest neighbors
in a nucleus. Because of this fact, the nuclear force extends out to about the
same distance away from a nucleus NO MATTER HOW MASSIVE THE NUCLEUS IS. This
fact is fundamental to the science of nuclear physics.
Once again, if Mr. Lazar has a NEW MODEL of the nuclear interaction which
explains the properties and decay rates of known nuclei...which can predict the
abundances of elements synthesized in the Big Bang...which can describe all of
the properties of nuclear reactions which take place inside of stars...all as
well as our current theories do all of these things (which is VERY well!) then
he should publish it and collect his Nobel Prize. If not, then once again his
statements make NO SENSE in the light of everything that we know about nuclear
Now even though the distance that the gravity A wave
extends past the perimeter of the atom is infinitesimal, it is accessible and
it has amplitude, wavelength and frequency, just like any OTHER wave in
the electromagnetic spectrum. Once you can access the gravity A wave, you can
amplify it just like we amplify OTHER electromagnetic waves.
I have emphasized the use of the word "other" in this paragraph to
show that Mr. Lazar apparently thinks that his "gravity A wave",
which if you recall, is also the strong nuclear force, is ALSO an
electromagnetic wave. Perhaps he HAS formulated a "Grand Unified
Theory" after all! Or perhaps this is just another example of his careless
use of scientific terms.
I want to take some time here to talk about scientific progress, because there is
one common objection to my critique of Lazar’s scenario. People will often say
“Modern science could be wrong. Newton was wrong! Lazar could be right!” Yes.
That is correct. In fact, modern science almost certainly IS “wrong.” But the
only real test of a theory in science is that it works. Newton’s Laws worked.
They still do in most situations. Einstein’s theories are better – they are
more accurate and they work in more situations. New theories will continue to
come along that are more precise and more generally applicable than the older
theories, and these new theories will be tested by experiments until they
supplant the old ones. That is how science has progressed for the past 400
So it is not enough to SAY
that modern science is wrong. You have to demonstrate that you have
something that is better. And that “better” theory needs to do everything that
the old theory does, and then do more. And chances are that it won’t completely
turn the old theory on it’s head – because we already know that the old
theories work too well. It is not possible to create a new theory until you
understand the old one well enough to present a coherent alternative. Calling
current science “total nonsense” is nice rhetoric, and no doubt convincing to
many non-scientists who feel alienated from science and look on scientists as a
kind of modern priesthood of arcane knowledge. But science is a process – not a
body of knowledge.
I can't possibly demonstrate conclusively that Lazar's mechanism is impossible.
All that I can hope to demonstrate here is that his scenario would require a
COMPLETE overhaul of our theories of gravity and particle physics in order to
work. Not just some minor changes...I'm talking from the ground up. Mr. Lazar
makes no mention of this fact, and he proposes no alternative theories. But, if
Lazar's scenario is true, then we will NEED some new theories, because we are
wrong about a great many things. We don't understand gravity. We don't
understand nuclear interactions. We don't understand spacetime. We don't
understand stellar evolution. However, considering Mr. Lazar's careless use of
language, his casual redefinition of scientific terms, and the complete lack of
details in his presentation, I'm willing to bet the farm that it is actually
Lazar who doesn't understand any of these things.
But wait.....There’s an addendum!!
Lazar explains on his current webpage (www.boblazar.com) how his
element 115 not only serves as the generator of the Gravity A wave, but ALSO as
the fuel for a matter/antimatter reactor that powers the rest of the saucer.
Let's take a close look at Lazar's explanation of this reactor...
"The power source is a reactor. Inside the reactor,
element 115 is bombarded with a proton, which plugs into the nucleus of the 115
atom and becomes element 116, which immediately decays and releases or radiates
small amounts of anti-matter. The anti-matter is released in a vacuum into a
tuned tube, which keeps it from reacting with the matter that surrounds it. It
is then directed toward the gaseous matter target at the end of the tube. The
matter, which in this case is the gas, and the anti-matter, collide and
annihilate totally converting to energy. The heat from this reaction is
converted into electrical energy in a near one hundred percent efficient
thermoelectric generator. "
Lots of impressive sounding stuff about reactors and
bombarding with protons and all that. But read it again. Antimatter and matter
are converted into energy. Fine. But where does the antimatter come from? From element
115 when it is "bombarded with a proton" by the ship's reactor. Hmmm. And just exactly HOW MUCH energy would
your reactor have to put into each proton to have it create an antiproton??
Well, exactly the mass energy of an antiproton! And how much energy do you get
back out when the antiproton annihilates? EXACTLY THE SAME AMOUNT OF ENERGY
THAT YOU PUT INTO CREATING IT!!
(Actually, you can't just make an antiproton by itself, you
have to make a proton/anti-proton pair. So your reactor needs to put in 2
"protons-worth" of mass-energy into each proton in the beam.)
If you have to MAKE your own antimatter on board, your
system produces NO NET ENERGY AT ALL!! You put 2 protons worth of energy in,
and you get 2 protons worth of energy out! In fact, the BEST this system could
do would be to make ZERO energy, but in fact, it would more likely USE far more
energy than it would make.
Conservation of energy rears it's ugly head, and once again
- it looks like Bob's saucer is going nowhere fast!
Dr. David L. Morgan
August 26, 1996, revised October 2005
Bob Lazar Biographical Data:
Robert Scott Lazar or Bob Lazar, (Born January 26, 1959, in Coral Gables, Florida, United States to Albert Lazar and Phyllis Berliner) Lazar claims to have worked from 1988 until 1989 as a physicist at an area called S-4 (Sector Four), located near Groom Lake, Nevada, next to Area 51.
According to Lazar, S-4 served as a hidden military location for the study of and possibly reverse engineering extraterrestrial flying saucers. Lazar says he saw nine different discs there and provides details on their mode of propulsion. His critics have pointed out that "Lazar's credibility crumbled" after "schools he was supposed to have attended had no record of him, while others in the scientific community, such as Edward Teller, had no memory of ever meeting him."
In November 1989, Lazar appeared in a special interview with investigative reporter George Knapp on Las Vegas TV station KLAS to discuss his alleged employment at S-4. In his interview with Knapp, Lazar said he first thought the saucers were secret, terrestrial aircraft, whose test flights must have been responsible for many UFO reports. Gradually, on closer examination and from having been shown multiple briefing documents, Lazar came to the conclusion that the discs must have been of extraterrestrial origin. In his filmed testimony, Lazar explains how this impression first hit him after he boarded the craft under study and examined their interior.
For the propulsion of the studied vehicles, Bob Lazar claims that the atomic element 115 served as a nuclear fuel. Element 115 (nicknamed 'Ununpentium' (Uup)) reportedly provided an energy source which would produce anti-gravity effects under proton bombardment along with the production of antimatter used for energy production. Lazar's website says, as the intense strong nuclear force field of element 115's nucleus would be properly amplified, the resulting effect would be a distortion of the surrounding gravitational field, allowing the vehicle to immediately shorten the distance to a charted destination.
Bob Lazar's Story:
In order to piece together Bob Lazar's story, I have tried to use just government web sites and Bob Lazar’s own web page (www.boblazar.com) for reference. I’ll start by giving you some background on clearances and access...
First Lazar claims to have two degrees, and on official record? Did the government sneak into his house and destroy his two diplomas and all myriad transcripts and written/typed documents from CIT-MIT?
Lazar says he has degrees from CalTech
In 1993, the "Los Angeles Times"
looked into his background and found there was no evidence to support his claims.
Stanton Friedman was only able to verify that Lazar took electronics courses in the late 1970s at "Los Angeles Pierce Junior College"
The Times did discover that in 1990 Lazar had plead guilty to Felony Pandering
, declared Bankruptcy
and listed his occupation as a self-employed photo processor on documents. A 1991 Times article reported, Lazar was "on probation in Clark County, Nevada
on a pandering charge. His educational and professional background cannot be verified -- a fact he attributes to government deletion of records.
Check out what the elder statesman of UFOlogy says about Bob Lazar... "The Bob Lazar Fraud" by Stanton Friedman http://www.v-j-enterprises.com/sflazar.html
On Bob Lazar’s Web Page: http://www.boblazar.com/closed/calendar.htm
He states from his calendar of 1988 that his first interview at EG&G was on 1 December 1988 and he actually worked at AREA 51 – S4 the last five days which would have been the Christmas holidays, a time where most of the Government and military are on Leave/Vacation/Or Comp Time. http://www.boblazar.com/closed/tape.htm
Just because you have a Confidential, Secret, or Top Secret Security Clearance does NOT mean you are authorized to view classified information. To access classified information or equipment or facilities, you must meet two specific requirements: A Security Clearance equal to the classification of the information or material and an appropriate NEED TO KNOW. Just because you have a Top Secret Clearance does not give you access to any information that you don’t have a ‘Need To Know.’ No one is supposed to be granted access to classified information solely because of rank, position, or a security clearance and that includes the President. Acronyms such as ATOMAL, CNWDI, COMSEC, COSMIC, CRYPTO, NOFORN, ORCON, SAP, SCI, SIOP-ESI, SPECAT, SIOP-ESI, etc., are not clearances. They are categories of classified information, some of which have extra need-to-know restrictions or require special access authorizations. A SAP is defined as: "a program established for a specific class of classified information and/or materials that imposes safeguarding and access requirements that EXCEED those normally required for information at the same classification level." Technically, a SCI is a SAP. Some SAPs are referred to as "black" programs; the very existence of which can be classified. Sensitive Compartmented Information (SCI) and Special Access Programs (SAP) are granted under very limited circumstance and the SAP is through a completely different process than clearances. So Lazar would have to had a Top Secret Clearance which he could have verified through DISCO for up to ten years after his last classified job. As Lazar says; Being a scientist at Top Secret Facility, working on Top Secret Equipment, using Top Secret Data/Information/Material(s) his security clearance (48 Levels above Top Secret with a ‘Q’ SCI might look like: Top Secret-SCI-Full ( EBI / Poly FSP - FS - LS - TS / Q / SI-TK / SAP-TS) Even then, he would have only been authorized to access the material he needed to complete his specific mission and duties. And NO person is allowed UNACCOMPANIED access with this type clearance. Again, not even the President.
The following pertains to Bob Lazar’s own Web page: http://www.boblazar.com/closed/robert.htm
Lazar notes that he had 'Majestic' clearance and that this clearance level was 48 levels above "Q" clearance. According to EVERYTHING I know, there are no levels above Top Secret. But as stated above there are many many SCIs, SAPs, and many other identifiers for BLACK programs. Of the thousands of people in the DoD, military, and civilian workers that I’ve known, not one of them ever used the term ‘Majestic’ in terms of a clearance (1967-1999). “The FBI quickly formed doubts as to the documents' authenticity. FBI personnel contacted the U.S. Air Force Office of Special Investigations
(counterintelligence), asking if MJ-12 had ever existed. AFOSI claimed that no such committee had ever been authorized or formed, and that the documents were “bogus.” The FBI adopted the AFOSI opinion and the FBI’s official position became that the MJ-12 documents were "completely bogus.”
“However, when Stanton Friedman contacted the AFOSI officer, Col. Richard Weaver, who had rendered this opinion, Friedman said Weaver refused to document his assertion. Friedman also noted that Weaver had taught Disinformation
courses for AFOSI and was principal author of the Air Force’s debunking Roswell report in 1994. (Friedman, 110-115)” See link below. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Majestic_12
During the period of 1988 it took about six months just to get a plain Top Secret clearance. Read this personal process: http://www.fas.org/irp/eprint/nsa-interview.pdf
of a guy that made it to 3.5 months before being denied a TS clearance and he had a very clean record. The President, Congress, Generals could get the type of clearance he would have to had in 3-4 months at best. Lazar’s clearance process would have taken a minimum of 6 months, but more likely a year, not THREE weeks. On this site link; http://www.boblazar.com/closed/robert.htm
is Lazar’s W2 for the year 1989. It says he earned $958.11 in 1989. According to his alleged degrees and experience he would have made between $20H/$800W to $25H/$1000W or 41K-52K yearly as a Defense Contractor. There are regulations that tell you what you can pay a civilian on any type government/military programs. In 1987 Edgar Fouche was making $55K a year as a Senior Program Manager and in 1989 Fouche was making $70K a year as Director of Engineering. So Lazar’s wages for that year that he was paid by the Navy was for about a weeks worth and they took out about 25% of what he made. Seems legit right?? NOT!
Lazar says he ‘started at the end of December 1988’. Now what’s the problem with this? Well the W2 you receive has the year you worked and all are processed at the end of each work year and mailed out by 31 January of the following year. So the W2 unequivocally states it was for the year 1989 and does not reflect any work he may have had in 1988. So the timeline for all the things about UFOs he’s stated over 20 years is based on the year he worked at Area 51/S-4 which was 1988 according to him. Yet his 1989 W2 he uses as proof shows this to be untrue. He even uses his myriad old calendars to support his employment in 1988, which the 1989 W2 disproves. Lazar points out on his web page: ‘Note at the top of the slip is a field reserved for the O.M.B. (Office of Management and Budget.)’ like it’s something special that validates his argument. Well The Office of Management and Budget (OMB) approves all IRS tax forms that are subject to the Act and each IRS form contains (in or near the upper right corner) the OMB approval number, if assigned. So the ‘OMB No. 1545-0008 is the OMB Document Control number, nothing else and teachers and clerks have the same thing on their W2. See: http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/library/OMBINV.TREASURY.html
He claimed in an interview that he was ‘called in to Area-51 to help them figure out how the UFOs propulsion worked’ (several models in a hanger) and recommended by the famous Dr. Teller which Teller denied. According to This Document
the DOD transferred its investigations functions to the Office of Personnel Management (OPM) in February 2005...
In 1988-89 the OMB DID NOT ISSUE ‘Q’ clearances to the DoD or the Navy or EG&G as Lazar states. http://www.boblazar.com/closed/calendar.htm
---------Transcript for Bob Lazar Interview---------
DECEMBER 6, 1988
Lazar: The following day the 6th was another short interview... meeting people and then finally going up there.
Q: This is the day they flew you up there... the sixth... one day after the panel?
Lazar: That doesn't make sense. This is the day that I went there. I remember writing "Trip to Nowhere" on there.
G: That's when you went to S4 the first time.
Lazar: Yeah, this is the first trip to Area 51.
G: Are you sure... where was the EG&G...
G: That's EG&G at four... where's the EG&G over here?
G: Wow... that had to be dropping the resume off.
Lazar: Yeah, I know... that's when the resume...
G: Well, what was this on the 28th?
Lazar: See, I don't know.
G: Looks like you scribbled out EG&G.
Lazar: It was always the day before Teller called, though.
Q: Well, this will still work... you can wrestle with your memories and say... was that right or wrong... no one's going to really be too interested in...
Lazar: Well, obviously this is the day I went up... this was the day of the first interview... the second interview was somewhere in there...
Q: Trip to Nowhere is December 6th... and that's about a four o'clock flight up there?
Q: And they called you at two... three?
Lazar: Right before two o'clock.
Q: Okay. Now, you had no idea they were going to call you, right?
Lazar: Right. I had no idea at all.
Q: Okay. Did you take anything or just your two shoes... you just went down to the airport and...
Lazar: Just went there...
Q: And they told you to get on the airplane and...
---------End of Segment---------
Remember Bob states; ‘DECEMBER 1, 1988’ was his ‘First interview with EG&G.’ By the 6th of December he was on his way to Area 51… Then on the same date (6 December 1988) G notices a note on the calendar that shows Lazar dropping his resume off. What?, after he already got the job and got one of the highest clearances in the USA?, THEN he drops of his resume? Okay we’ll presume he dropped his resume off on his way to Area 51... This site reinforces my comments based on known documented experiences with getting a ‘Q’ Clearance, not to mention one “48 Levels above Q.”
DECEMBER 20, 1988
RESTRICTED—Not to be released outside the General Accounting Office unless specifically approved by the Office of Congressional Relations.
CLEARANCES TIMES: Then and now. http://18.104.22.168/search?q=cache:b4WcIaZd368J:www.gao.gov/cgi-bin/getrpt%3FGAO/RCED-93-183+NUCLEAR+SECURITY+DOE+Actions+to+Improve+the+Personnel+Clearance+Program&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us
(Page 4) “Contractors said that DOE’S processing times for most of their Q-level clearances improved,’ from an estimated range of 18 to 28 months in the late 1980s and early 1990s.” http://22.214.171.124/search?q=cache:PdROlvVL9PYJ:handle.dtic.mil/100.2/ADA457310+NUCLEAR+SECURITY+DOE+Actions+to+Improve+the+Personnel+Clearance+Program&cd=13&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us
(2006) “GAO’s analysis of timeliness data showed that industry personnel contracted to work for the federal government waited more than one year on average to receive top secret clearances, longer than OPM-produced statistics would suggest.”
L: The Alpha Probe Contract was renewed on the 20th. Tracy's dad visits on the 23rd... her sister comes in on the 26th... Robin... this is when, now that I have my job, I'm training Wayne's wife, 'cause Tracy decided she no longer wanted to do photos... training Wayne's wife how to do photos... so..
DECEMBER 26-30, 1988
L: Within the 26th through the 30th is when Thigpen showed up. Cause Robin was here and so was Kris... Robin and Kris were here the day Thigpen showed up... so within those five days is when Thigpen showed up and before this... somewhere... was another surprise visit from those guys that was never recorded.
Q: Before Thigpen?
G: You already know Thigpen was with the OFI, right?
Q: No, you say OFI... I'm familiar with the OSI... but what is the OFI?
DECEMBER 14, 1988
L: Black and white Groom Lake photo done. I think this is when I blew up a photo of Groom Lake to see...
G: That was that old photo of Groom Lake from the '60's or something... wasn't it?
L: Right... I had just gotten back from there about a week ago...
Q: And you wanted to see what?
L: If it had changed...
Q: Well, it sounds to me like you were interested in seeing where you were up there?
Q: Where did that photograph come from that you blew up? That negative?
L: Where did that come from?
Q: That's okay... that's interesting... so you were in the darkroom taking a look at where you were.
G: I think you made a negative from another photo and enlarged that negative of that photo... you know what I mean... I don't think you had access to a negative...
G: I think we had gotten another picture from somewhere and he made a negative and then enlarged that...
L: I was trying to look for the building that I went in...
Q: Okay. Was it there?
L: I couldn't tell. It was just too big.
Q: When you got off the airplane up there, what did they do... did they just drop you on an airstrip and you walk off into a receiving area...
L: No... there's like a little electric... not a golf cart thing... but one that seats several people... like a tour bus type of thing... but all open and that just takes you from the strip to the last couple of buildings on the end...
Q: People get off at different points...
DECEMBER 14, 1988
It seems that Bob is saying he had a photo of Groom from the 60s, where he might have gotten one is hard to believe. He says he wanted to see if Groom AB had changed since then compared to his visual observation I presume.
Edgar Fouche says:
DECEMBER 20, 1988
"I’ve known a lot of people that worked at Groom AB, including Test Pilots and Engineers. I was there in '78 which I’ve proved. From 78 to 90 all of my associates who were at Groom stated unequivocally that the private plane service from McCarrin Air Port in LV, the Contractor and Military busses from LV or Tonopah or the Nevada Test Site had the windows locked shut and were completely darkened out. And when you’re at Area 51 which includes Groom AB and S4 as well as many other classified areas that even the shuttles are darkened out. ONLY those people actually authorized to work on the flight-line or ramp on equipment or during Test Flights were allowed to see anything outdoors. When we went from the Engineering hanger to the supply depot we wore welder’s type goggles and couldn’t see anything further than a few dozen yards. And we were escorted by a guy with an automatic weapon. He implies that it is a satellite picture and he blew it up. It must have been extremely high quality to blow up enough to see any details from orbit, especially a 1960 photo..."
L: The Alpha Probe Contract was renewed on the 20th. Tracy's dad visits on the 23rd... her sister comes in on the 26th... Robin... this is when, now that I have my job, I'm training Wayne's wife, 'cause Tracy decided she no longer wanted to do photos... training Wayne's wife how to do photos... so...
DECEMBER 26-30, 1988
L: Within the 26th through the 30th is when Thigpen showed up. Cause Robin was here and so was Kris... Robin and Kris were here the day Thigpen showed up... so within those five days is when Thigpen showed up and before this... somewhere... was another surprise visit from those guys that was never recorded.
Q: Before Thigpen?
G: You already know Thigpen was with the OFI, right?
L: No, you say OFI... I'm familiar with the OSI... but what is the OFI?
Was he home during these visits where he’s training Wayne’s wife? Not Area 51?
“DOD transferred its investigations functions to the Office of Personnel Management (OPM) in February 2005.” In 1988-89 the OMB DID NOT ISSUE ‘Q’ clearances to the DoD or the Navy or EG&G as Lazar states. http://www.boblazar.com/closed/calendar.htm
DECEMBER 26-30, 1988
G:You already know Thigpen was with the OFI, right?
Lazar: No, you say OFI... I'm familiar with the OSI... but what is the OFI?
G: The Office of Federal Investigations... which is not something you can look up in the phonebook... it's not a public access like the FBI or CIA... and I'm not totally... George Knapp might be able to help you out a little more there... but they apparently... they do background checks for people that need clearance... they do the background checks and they are a division of the Office of Personnel Management... OPM... which is headquartered in Pennsylvania... and OFI is something almost nobody's ever heard of...
Lazar: I had never heard of them... background investigations that I was familiar with were done by the Defense Investigative Service... DIS... and sometimes the FBI would get involved... so this is a new one for me and OSI... is Office of Special Investigations...
G: This was definitely OFI... they have an office here in town...
Lazar: Yeah, George Knapp managed to track them down...
Bob say’s the OFI and OMB were super secret agencies who did his security clearance. This is impossible for the following reasons:
1. The NAVY paid him according to his W2 and the NAVY is under the Department Of Defense.
2. Prior to the year 2000, EVERYONE that worked in a Top Secret capacity in military/DoD programs or at TS facilities gets their clearances from some DoD Agency. Prior to the end of the Cold War it was illegal to mention the name of the National Security Agency and National Reconnaissance Office. But by 1988 even the former secret agencies were acknowledged. And the OMB/OFI weren’t secret.
3. The web page below shows the point when the DoD (i.e. Navy) handed over their own personal security investigative services to the FIS. http://126.96.36.199/search?q=cache:nB3HjPSAl58J:armedservices.house.gov/pdfs/Read021308/Dillaman_Testimony021308.pdf+%22Federal+Investigative+Services%22+history&cd=17&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us
By statutory requirement, on February 20, 2005, DOD's personnel security investigations program and staff were consolidated with the OPM investigations staff which is headquartered inPennsylvania. This meant the absorption of over 1,600 Defense Security Service (DSS) staff by OPM, along with 145,000 background investigations in process, and all ongoing DSS workloadspreviously handled by DOD.
4. The OPM was a matter of Public Record long before 1988. It was so secret that thousands of articles were written about it. Like the Ultra Top Secret Majestic ‘Washington Post.’ Constance Horner; The Rapidly Risen Star of Personnel Management The Washington Post
- March 9, 1987 - Judith Havemann. (This material is published under license from the Washington Post. All inquiries regarding rights should be directed to the Washington Post.)
Hide copyright information
and United States Court of Appeals http://cases.justia.com/us-court-of-appeals/F2/838/1222/280833/
and another appeal case…
Office of Personnel Management http://188.8.131.52/search?q=cache:JPfMBH1Pv74J:www.ll.georgetown.edu/federal/judicial/fed/opinions/95opinions/95-3356.pdf+%22Office+of+Personnel+Management%22+security+clearances+1988&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us
Pursuant to 5 U.S.C. § 7703(d),
the Director of the Office of Personnel Management (OPM) petitions for review of the final decision of the Merit Systems Protection Board, Docket No. AT0752900238-R-2, reversing the Department of the Navy's decision to place Raymond Alston on enforced leave after suspending his access to classified information. Alston v. Department of Navy, 62 M.S.P.R. 19 (1994). “The agency (Navy) has a two-part personnel security policy to maintain control over access to classified information. First, employees must have personnel security clearances, which are granted by a Central Adjudication Facility (CAF) after formal, often lengthy, background investigations. 32 C.F.R. § 154.41 (1995).”
Thus, section 7513(b) entitles an employee to notice of the reasons for the suspension of his access to classified information when that is the reason for placing the employee on enforced leave pending a decision on the employee's security clearance. Such notice provides the employee with an adequate opportunity to make a meaningful reply to the agency before being placed on enforced leave. Merely providing the employee with information that his access to classified information is being suspended, without more, does not provide the employee with sufficient information to make an informed reply to the agency before being placed on enforced leave.
JANUARY 1, 1989
L: And I went before Christmas. So before the 23rd...
G: Because they broke for Christmas, didn't they...
L: Yes, before the 23rd is the second trip there and I don't know where that occurred.
He has stated he worked the last week of December on his site.
G: Well, (UNCLEAR)... that he read in the reports... that man was a product of externally corrected evolution and that man is a species that's been genetically altered sixty-five times http://www.boblazar.com/closed/02.htm
S4 - THE ROBERT LAZAR STORY
- TAPE 2 -- SIDE A
Q: Question - L: Lazar
Q: You're on this bus every time?
L: Every time. It's the only way you can come and go.
Q: And they still had the guard.
L: Always... he was always standing in front of me.
Q: You're still almost alone every time or there's more people?
L: No, that was the only time there was ever anyone else. From then on it was always Dennis and I.
Q: In the back of this huge bus?
(Now Lazar has previously stated that they wizzed around on an electric tour type cart. But in this Tape 2/side A it’s a bus.)
L: No, now he is. Now... he knew about it before... 'cause before we got on the bus he said, I want to show you what you're going to be working on and I said, great, and we got out of the bus and this is when that all ran through my mind... I said, this is the secret fighter of the future is what we're working on. So on and so forth. We came in the hangar in the entrance, walked around it, and this is the first time that we picked up, what I call, parasitic guards, that just are walking, and as you walk by they just attach themselves along side of you.
Q: Did they speak to you ever?
L: Yeah, they did. They asked me to keep my eyes forward and walk directly to the door on the right. If the entrance was here... on the very back here there would be a door... actually this way... that goes to a corridor and I was walking here and he said, keep your eyes forward and enter in that door on the back. And I did. Now Dennis disappeared. Maybe because I didn't turn around. As I went back, I purposely came really close to this, so I could slide my hand on the belly of the disc, feeling that it was cold, just to see what it felt like.
(Too many contradictions to address. But, why is he asked ‘to keep my eyes forward,’ when previously they just toured around in an ‘open’ cart. I can understand not remembering dates, but remembering a Bus one time and an electric open tour cart another?)
L: Well there are nine total.
Q: Nine doors that are all connected all...
L: Well, see inside the hangars...
Q: That's wild... it's like a car show...
L: That's exactly what it is... a car show room... though they were all the same... they all fit... the hangars were all the same size... there are bay doors that open like this to the outside, but there are also big garage type doors that open this way... and one of the times I went in all the doors were open and you could see all the way down through the hangars...
Q: All the ships?
L: Yeah... and they were all different kinds, but I could never walk past... I mean the line of death was on the other side of the disc...
Lazar is talking about the nine hangers at S4. On his web page he has many diagrams and drawings showing where he could go and not go. He’s very specific about this, but in this part of the interview he says he can see “all the doors were open and you could see all the way down through the hangers.” He talks about compartmentalization, but this is NOTHING like what Edgar Fouche saw on TOP SECRET Black programs and compartmentalization.
Q: Well, it looks like a laser beam in my shot.
L: But there were some other tests that were done... the reason why we had to find what was going on... if we knew the element... it was kind of the starting point, then we could find out what the reactor was doing. After we find out what it was and how it was working, we later discovered that the bottom of the reactor was probably an accelerator of sorts. If anything it was like a cyclotron... where particles would rev up to high speed and then be diverted up and impact the element.
Q: They didn't realize that at the time?
L: No. That's almost exactly where... at the point they were at when they wanted to cut into it.
Q: (GROUP "HMMM")
L: What was that group "hmmm"
Q: Well, it almost makes fun of themselves... that's fabulous. Well, let me finish this though. You'd worked on cyclotrons before?
L: No... not cyclotrons... but accelerators.
Q: Okay... and is that background what made you realize what this really was?
Q: The beauty of this is... I don't want to insult Bob, because I'm completely unscientific, but as we get closer... the fun of this stuff is... the guy who inflates these garbage bags and they bring him in because he's got a different point of view is able to say... of course this is working... because you're overcomplicating it. We can come up with a visual... when we meet him... that he is reminded of when he discovers what it is. That he's working with... what did you say it is... it's not cyclotrons?
Q: What is really interesting is that Los Alamos Labs is working in conjuction with S4... what they're doing is analyzing...
L: No... they weren't analyzing... they had no idea what they were dealing with.
Q: Why did they have some then?
L: Because... this is liquid gas (?) essentially... this substance was stored in discs like silver dollar size and it was used in the reactors... the way it's manufactured, these discs are stacked up...Q: Kind of like Vegas... put a silver dollar in and the wheel spins...
L: These discs are stacked up... they're taken sideways, compressed and then lathed into a cone... this cone is then sliced... like that... and only in that configuration can these discs work... when one of those slices... which if you look at one of those slices...
Q: Was it easy to slice or hard material?
L: I have no idea... it's very heavy and it will only work in that configuration in the reactor... for all that machining that was sent to Los Alamos... and it was sent under the guise of a new armor... and they were making test targets for the armor... and I thought, that was great 'cause it was going in as a classified material but they had no idea what they were dealing with. I knew the place in Los Alamos where it was going... I knew the building... I knew people that worked there... I've been in there... and it just really connected a lot of stuff together for me... that everyone really doesn't know what they're doing. Los Alamos had no idea.
(Lazar’s web page shows a picture/drawing of a triangular slice which he says is this Element 151. I’m obviously confused.)
L: But I remember dealing with Russians at Los Alamos and, if there's any way possible to screw 'em, I'm all for it. Abso-fucking-lutely... ever single time we did anything... we developed... in the interest of science and cooperation... we were working on this super-conducting magnetic... and we had a big undertaking to have this thing made... it was millions of dollars and we could have really used it for our research, but we decided, well, we'll give it to the Russians for six months to let them use it and then, you know, take it back... stuff like this happened countless times... we'd let them borrow it for six months and they'd say... we lost it... it's gone. It was in a train crash... it's evaporated... and we'd never see it again... and this would happen countless times... so actually when I heard the information it was like, good, yeah, good... I'm glad... if we could have only shot them on the way out... I have absolutely no... because they just ripped us off continuously.
Lazar also said:
L: I don't know because I always came there at 4:30 and I usually left at eleven.
Did the Russians work swing shift? When did they eat dinner? How much could he have done with them when he was only working only 1 or 2 days a week as he states?
This link is to the picture of the hangers where he worked. The hallway is just across the walkway from their lab. Just how far is ‘a long hallway to the bathroom?’ http://www.boblazar.com/closed/baseplan.htm
L: Yeah, just... stupid things... it's a long hallway to the bathroom and you'd be walking down there at a normal pace and he'd just give me a butt from behind, come on, we don't have all day... stuff like that... it was like... get off my back. http://www.boblazar.com/closed/03.htm
L: No... EG&G had nothing to do with them... there were no EG&G personnel in that building... all Naval Intelligence did was use the planes and the building for rendezvous... EG&G personnel were not allowed out at S4... http://www.boblazar.com/closed/05.htm
Edgar Fouche: From my experience EG&G provided security, logistics, service staff and maintenance personnel For the Nevada Test Site and the Nellis Range which includes Area 51 and S4. This was true in the 70s through last year for sure. One of my former Commanders, a retired Colonel was the Site Manager for EG&G at Area 51 during the 90s. http://www.boblazar.com/closed/robert.htm
“Note Lazar's Employee number. E-6722MAJ. Compare the following badge, issued to Lazar by the security department at S4.” EG&G issued the badge. This is not an original badge but a composite image someone created. According to federal law and the security contracts he claimed to sign, he would have had to turn in all badges, equipment, manuals, and documents he had obtained through employment at a Top Secret SCI/SAP program.
S4 - THE ROBERT LAZAR STORY
CALENDAR -- AUGUST 1988 THROUGH AUGUST 1989
(CONTINUATION OF TAPE 6 -- SIDE A)
[VIDEO TAPE OF THE 3RD VISIT TO GROOM LAKE BEGINS TO RUN IN THE B.G. A BIT HARD AT TIMES TO DISTINGUISH INTERVIEW FROM THAT B.G. DIALOGUE.]
Q: So who's in the car now?
L: This is Kris driving. There's John Lear. No, you didn't want John to come.
G: We never wanted John to come. He was too big an asshole. He acts like he's in charge. How this happened was... you know the tests ran on a regular basis and Lear called and wanted to go up to Groom and Bob goes, Nah, I don't think we're going to go tonight... and blows him off and Lear says, well, I'm going out there anyway and so Bob calls me and says...
L: Didn't he just show up in front of the house?
G: He might have called you from his cellphone... I remember that you did call me and I go... well, I don't know... cause Lear and I never got along terribly well... so Lear shows up within twenty minutes...
Q: Now help me here with something? When George called... who did John Lear tell George Knapp...
L: John Lear I think was the first contact to George.
Q: So John told George... call Bob Lazar.
L: I don't know how he got in touch with me? I know it started out...
G: See now that Lear knew... Lear was starting to blab... the tape of when we were out there with Lear was the joy of Lear's life, at this point in time. So, yeah, Lear was trying to (UNCLEAR), cause Lear wanted everybody to go... ah ah... John Lear... I said it... I showed you... I changed the world. So he was the conduit to George Knapp. I don't know how it happened, but George Knapp called and out of the blue Bob said yes that he would go on television and I couldn't believe it. Which was really exciting because now we knew they're been life here from somewhere else and the hardware and everything... and this was a thrill because now Bob was going to go on the news and tell everybody. So it was thrilling...
G: John Lear was on a TV program one time and Lane said that it sounded like they used a thing called the Orion Response on Bob... because Bob said, they were slamming fingers in his chest... and shouting in his ear and threatening him and pointing guns at his head and everything and so Lear goes on TV... it was "On the Record" with George Knapp and goes... yeah, I know this scientist and it's a strange thing, when he goes to work there, they're able to turn him on and make him remember everything and then when he goes home... they turn him off and he goes home and he can't remember anything that happened... and they used this secret government thing called the Orion Response... the Orion Response was actually advertised in the Yellow Pages under hypnotherapist... but this is a John Lear story. And there are a hundred thousand people who would believe that you could take a scientist to work, like a robot, and turn him on and off... and this was the kind of stuff... so, Lear takes a little thing that Lane said, hey, it sounds like they might have used the Orion Response on him... which everybody in hypnotherapy knows about... Lear turns it into a super secret government thing that only he knows about.
(MACHINE TURNED OFF AND BACK ON -- DIFFERENT SETTING)
G: When we were outside of Area 51 one night... and, here's the thing, Bob compartmentalizes information, so he was telling me stuff... Joe stuff... Jim stuff... maybe Lear stuff... but I never questioned... we never had a big old meeting... and I didn't know what they knew... and they didn't know what I knew... and I felt just fortunate to know what I knew... now a couple years ago, he told me that the reason I ended up knowing more than everyone else... because other than Lear, which he didn't give that much information to, his other friends, who knew him longer... his older friends, Joe and Jim, didn't ask him. But, anyway... which I find strange, if you had a friend that could answer those kind of questions, would you do anything but question him? But anyway... we were driving out there and Lear goes... you know how many aliens are here? And I said, you mean, how many do I know are here or how many do I know you think are here... and he takes that as an insult... and then he proceeds to tell us that we can't remember if it's one billion or two billion...
L: No, how many aliens are living in the mountains that lie along side of the road? And we think he's joking. But he's serious. And I said, no, John, how many. I'd say it was a billion, but...
G: It was either one or two billion... who cares... let's say a billion...
L: There's a billion in there. In these mountains alone.
G: And we said, now do they just live on Highway 15 or over on Highway 95...
L: And he got so pissed off... he really believed...
G: This guy expected us to believe there were a billion aliens living in the mountains that line the highway on the way up to Area 51...
L: It was great... it was absolutely great.
(MACHINE TURNED OFF AND BACK ON)
G: Anyway, he's (Lear) over in Laos, when we're not supposed to be in Laos... he flies cargo in there and they go to sleep in these tents and he's going to bed for the night and Lear goes to bed and he starts to fall asleep and he hears a KABLAAAMMM like a bomb goes off and he gets up and he thinks this is the end... he thinks they're being bombed and this is it... they're all going to die... but he looks out and across the way there are a bunch of other pilots out there and there's a light out there and they're playing games... they're throwing knives against this wooden building for money... they're gambling and throwing knives at a target... and he lays back down and all of a sudden KABLAAAMMM, it happens again, and Lear is scared to death... he's shaking, but he doesn't know what to do and he doesn't want to act like a big sissy... cause these guys are out there throwing knives. So this goes on all night and he doesn't get any sleep and he gets up in the morning... trying to act macho and he goes to take a shower and stuff and the subject of the loud explosions come up and this is when he finds out that those were outgoing shells... and those were the guns going off... and that's why the other guys weren't worried and throwing knives and he thought they were being bombed on... So they gave him the award of the Laos chicken, wasn't it... or something like that?
G: He got a ribbon with it...
L: That's a John Lear story.
G: ... it was equivalent to the woman from Venus in his eyes... he's just the funnel... he takes everything and doesn't qualify or anything and he just spits it back out... and when someone proves it to be absolutely false... Lear says, I'm sorry. And he thinks that's okay. Now most people in the rest of the world don't... but Lear's misinformation is not malicious... he's a numbskull... he's a knucklehead... he could play Curly on the Three Stooges... but he doesn't look like that... even his house... this guy lucks out... they've got a house... you know, I did an appraisal on his house... that's how we got all the original UFO... five hundred thousand dollars... he's got... it's on 2.2 acres that (UNCLEAR) on Hollywood Boulevard that have off on Sunrise Mountain and there's a whole view of the valley... the nighttime view is breathtaking... things are a lot cheaper here than down where you're from... I think it's only worth about five hundred and fifty thousand now... he's got 2.2 acres... the main house is a two story stucco/tile, pretty nicely decorated inside... it's forty-four hundred square feet... then in a U-shape around the pool, there's a seventeen hundred square foot two bedroom/two bathroom with a fireplace guesthouse...
Q: Jesus... I should live here...
G: You should... a seven hundred and twenty square foot one bedroom kitchenette/one bath studio, which is next to the four car garage around the pool and behind it is a tennis court and a corral with a tack room in it... and that's all...
Q: Five hundred and fifty thousand dollars?
G: Well... anyway, so, this is all on... there's eight/tenths of an acre behind that... all that good stuff I just described is on 1.4 acres and it's 2.2 acres total... he's got his own wall, everything... so I don't know how they found out about this, but this house belonged to a highroller gambler... there were first, second and third mortgages on it and he went under and they foreclosed on it...
Q: What does that tell you about highrollers?
G: Yeah... so Lear bid three hundred and thirty thousand bucks on this house... I don't know where he was going to get that...
L: From his mom...
G: Oh, okay... so he bids it and they turn it down... so all these mortgagers foreclose on it and it comes back for an auction at the bank... Lear is the only one that shows up at the auction... he bids a hundred and seventy-five thousand and they take it. He had already offered three thirty and they turned it down... he goes to the auction, only one there and bids one seventy-five... they take it and the land was worth more than one seventy-five... so this knucklehead gets this 2.2 acre estate for a hundred and seventy-five thousand dollars. I mean it's the best real estate deal I've ever seen...
(END OF TAPE SEVEN)
George Knapp's comments on Bob Lazar
KNAPP: Would I like to comment on the credibility of John Lear's information? It's a mixed bag for me. John had helped me when I first started this research, locating a lot of documents, and getting acquainted with the field in general. I thank him for that. In the past years since then, he's kind of gone off the deep end. He makes a lot of claims about aliens are here to eat us and things of that nature. Claims that just rattle out of his head like he doesn't even think about them. He doesn't worry about proving anything. I think a lot of the problems that Lazar has had are because of his association with Lear. Lear with make claims about things that Lazar has supposedly told him that are completely untrue. So I have a lot of problems with John Lear's credibility.
KNAPP: The first question is, would I like to comment on Bill Cooper? I guess it will be a black mark on my broadcasting career forever because I put Bill Cooper on television for the first time. I suspect that Bill Cooper did see some documents at one time, at some point in his military career, but those documents have grown and grown and grown as Bill has appropriated more wacked out stuff over the years. He has done more harm to ufology than any other single person I can think of. He's scared the hell out of people passing that stuff around about this big deal between us and the aliens and we're all going to be put in concentration camps and we have to rally 'round the flag and old time religion. It's just made a big mess. I think he's not a good person.
Bob Lazar's Birth:
"A certified copy of the defendant's birth certificate indicates he was born on January 26, 1959 to the union of Albert Lazar and Phyllis Berliner (natural mother); however the defendant reports he was born on January 26, 1959 in Coral Gables, Florida, to unknown parents and was subsequently adopted by Albert Lazar and the former Phyllis Berliner within the first few months of his life".
When I first posted this installment of the Lazar Flaws on Usenet, I withheld the information on Lazar's adoption out of respect for his privacy. However in Gene Huff's response, (which I currently lack) he posted the information that Lazar was adopted and that this was the cause of the difficulties in obtaining a certificate. Indeed, he stated it was Lazar himself that gave the probation officer the certified birth certificate.
So in this case at least, there is a routine explanation for something that was initially portrayed as having very sinister overtones. There is nothing at all wrong with that, however this "disappearing records" scenario has become a firm part of the Lazar story. Although Lazar no longer claims his birth records have vanished, the story is still out there in the early books and interviews. It's never really been corrected, and seems to live on.
More on Lazar's Educational Background
More from the same guy:
Lazar has said on several occasions that, aside from the security, working at S-4 was a "dream job". He also claims to have had a Q clearance so should be quite familiar with the requirements of working in a highly secret compartmentalized environment. Yet he easily violated all his signed agreements and oaths by freely disclosing information to his friends. He even set up three "group outings" for he and his friends to witness flight operations of what I'm sure Lazar would agree is the most secret program the US has. Why would someone familiar with government security requirements not only jeopardize his job, but also his very freedom, to do such a thing?
See bottom paragraph of page 82… OPM/OFI
Authority: Access to Criminal History Records for National Security Purposes, of The Intelligence Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 1986, Pub. L. No. 99–169, secs. 801–803, 99 Stat. 1002, 1008–1011 (1985) (codified in part at 5 U.S.C. 9101).
Source: 51 FR 42555, Nov. 25, 1986, unless otherwise noted.
§ 99.1 Scope and purpose.
- The Department of Defense (DoD), Office of Personnel Management (OPM), or Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) has the right to criminal history information of States and local criminal justice agencies in order to determine whether a person may:
- Be eligible for access to classified information;
- Be assigned to sensitive national security duties; or
- Continue to be assigned to national security duties.
- This part sets out the conditions under which the DoD, OPM, or CIA may sign an agreement to indemnify and hold harmless a State or locality against claims for damages, costs, and other monetary loss caused by disclosure or use of criminal history record information by one of these agencies.
- The procedures set forth in this part do not apply to situations where a Federal agency seeks access to the criminal history records of another Federal agency.
- By law these provisions implementing 5 U.S.C. 9101 (b)(3) shall expire December 4, 1988, unless the duration of said section is extended or limited by Congress.
§ 99.3 General definitions.
For the purposes of §§99.1 through 99.9 of this part:
Criminal history record information: information collected by criminal justice agencies on individuals consisting of identifiable descriptions and notations of arrests, indictments, information, or other formal criminal charges and any disposition arising therefrom, sentencing, correction supervision, and release. The term does not include identification information such as fingerprint records to the extent that such information does not indicate involvement of the individual in the criminal justice system. The term does not include those records of a State or locality sealed pursuant to law from access by State and local criminal justice agencies of that State or locality.
Lazar's signature at bottom
Although the ready availability of a substance as toxic as polonium 210 can’t be a good thing, Lazar’s Web site appears to be perfectly legal. NEWSWEEK was unable to obtain independent confirmation that the substance being sold was indeed polonium, but United Nuclear says it sells only miniscule 0.1 microcurie doses—about 30,000 times below the toxic dose for a person weighing about 150 pounds, and probably not nearly enough to kill, say, a spy . And each dose comes encased in a foil shell that is insoluble and inert in most chemicals. In this sealed form, the polonium will not be absorbed if swallowed, and therefore, “it’s not a health hazard,” says David McIntyre, a spokesman for the U.S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission (NRC). “You would need about 15,000 of our Polonium 210 needle sources at a total cost of about $1 million to have a toxic amount,” says a recent statement on United Nuclear’s Web site. All the isotopes the company sells, according to the statement, are so small the NRC permits their sale without a license.
Claims to have worked with alien craft at "Area S-4" in Nevada
Analysis by Glenn Campbell
- ^ a b c Rivenberg, Roy (May 6, 1993). "Unusually Fanatical Observers Ike Struck Deal With Aliens! Trip to...". Los Angeles Times. http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/latimes/access/60276652.html?dids=60276652:60276652&FMT=ABS&FMTS=ABS:FT&date=May+06%2C+1993&author=ROY+RIVENBURG&pub=Los+Angeles+Times+(pre-1997+Fulltext).
- ^ "...so credible was Lazar's highly detailed story--until Lazar's credibility crumbled. Schools he was supposed to have attended had no record of him, while others in the scientific community had no memory of ever meeting him..." "Tales of Vegas Past: The truth was out there". Las Vegas Mercury. June 12, 2003. http://www.lasvegasmercury.com/2003/MERC-Jun-12-Thu-2003/21504063.html. Retrieved 2008-12-12.
- ^ "Maximum Distortion". www.boblazar.com. 2009. http://www.boblazar.com/closed/index.html. Retrieved 2009-02-02.
- ^ "The Beings". www.boblazar.com. 2009. http://www.boblazar.com/closed/EVLOLVE.htm. Retrieved 2009-02-02.
- ^ The Bob Lazar Fraud December 1997 By Stanton Friedman
- ^ Sands, Shannon (March 20, 1991). "Believers Are Not Alone Outer space: A Nevada military base lures the Faithful". Los Angeles Times. http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/latimes/access/61145381.html?dids=61145381:61145381&FMT=ABS&FMTS=ABS:FT&date=Mar+20%2C+1991&author=SHANNON+SANDS&pub=Los+Angeles+Times+(pre-1997+Fulltext). Retrieved 2009-02-02.
- ^ a b c "Don't Try This at Home". Wired. June 2006. http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/14.06/chemistry.html. Retrieved 2009-02-17.
- ^ "Don't Peddling Poison - How Scary Are Online Polonium Sales?". Newsweek. November 30, 2006. http://docs.newsbank.com/g/GooglePM/NWEC/lib00284,115C59E39F8A7E50.html. Retrieved 2009-02-17.
- ^ "Albuquerque firm feuds with feds over sale of fireworks parts". Albuquerque Tribune. July 24, 2007.
- ^ "NM: Company fined in fireworks case". ABC News. 20 Jul 2007. http://www.abcmoney.co.uk/news/202007106380.htm. Retrieved 2009-02-17.
- ^ a b "New Mexico Company Fined, Ordered To Stop Selling Illegal Fireworks Components". U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission. 20 Jul 2007. http://www.cpsc.gov/cpscpub/prerel/prhtml07/07249.html. Retrieved 2009-02-17.
- ^ "Ka-Booom!!" Wired magazine, December 1994
Here is a resume of a man stating he worked for EG&G, a company that ran the Nevada Ranges.
– Resume of person who ‘ran’ the western ranges for DoD in Nevada. (Public Company; URS; Defense & Space industry)
Name and personal
December 2007 — Present (1 year 7 months) Currently work as a technical recruiter for EG&G Technical Services Inc. in support of the JT3 contract. JT3 stands for Joint Test, Tactics, and Training and is a partnership between EG&G and Raytheon to run the western ranges for the Dept. of Defense. We support four ranges located in Nevada, California, and Utah. I am responsible to find qualified candidates for the Nevada based ranges and support the other sites as well.
National Security Technologies, (NSTec)
(Defense & Space industry)
September 1988 — November 2007 (19 years 3 months)
Responsible for all recruiting and staffing activities the Dept Of Energy contract for the Nevada Test Site work for the contractors, EG&G Energy Measurements (88-96), Bechtel Nevada (96-06), and NSTec (06-07). Areas of responsibility included, recruiting, new hire orientation, personnel records management, and terminations. http://www.linkedin.com/pub/michael-kimberlain/11/660/20
Perimeter security is provided by uniformed private security guards working for EG&G's security subcontractor Wackenhut.
The Janet airline is operated by EG&G, a private contractor that provides services such as security to Area 51.